Maybe that’s true then (though I do side eye a little that the men put pressure on them despite them repeatedly saying no, but I digress), this is 2019; it’s not the 1940s. Women are allowed to have consensual sex and stay out late with men AND SAY NO TO ADVANCES. this song can stay dead because it’s not the right time period and makes me feel wildly uncomfortable with the thought that this song is perpetuating that no means yes. When it doesn’t today. No means no.
I totally agree and not only does no mean no but if they’re giving you all the signals that mean no without saying it, it still means no, I just think the song doesn’t deserve all the shit it gets because how often in media today do we see playing hard to get being romanticized? (which is essentially what the girl is doing in this song) and none of those get nearly as much shit. Heck even here in episode it’s a common trope that the girl acts uninterested but the guy still makes advances.
Man thats a lot of words… Yeah I can’t read all that.
ahaha that’s fair enough
Basically consent for women was a myth in the 1930s and men advancing on them despite the woman saying no was actually her saying yes
Oh, thanks for suming it up. All I can say is its 2019? That’s messed up tho.
Low key one of the lyrics was the women saying “Say, what’s in this drink?”
Like did he do what I think he did…
Oh, I just realized that was said in that essay up there
It’s explained at the very top. That was a stock joke at the time that essentially meant nothing was in the drink but they used that line as an excuse to act the way they were acting even though they were actually totally sober
I think it’s lazy to assume the meaning of a song without considering the context of the era it was written in, that being said just because it was meant to be innocent then doesn’t mean it isn’t rapey af now. It’s almost the year of our lord 2020, that trope is outdated, there are better seasonal songs that don’t sound like they’re endorsing assault.
it funny how people wanna take old stuff and compare it to today’s standards. like example Tintin in congo. good book. if it came out today it would be crazy racist. for when it came out I dont think so much.
another example movies plot and quality people compare Cinderella and Elsa. despite they have over 60 years between them. or movie quality see toy story vs toy story 4 . time changes things change.
the meaning of a word in a south park episode they joke about how the word fag has change
also I dont think the song sound rapey. I think its sound more like a girl trying to let him down running all the excuses she can
@line123462 @LiaMina I just hate how people are made to feel bad for liking the song. I never found it rapey and I think that had a lot to do with me seeing it in performances often where despite the girl saying “I really can’t stay” she’s falling into the guys arms but I also understand how it comes across without the visuals, or the context but there’s nothing wrong with liking the song. It’s a 1940s love story, and yes love stories from 1940 were very different than love stories in 2019 and yes I can understaNd how without taking in the context, the song comes across as rapey and there’s nothing wrong with not liking the song because of that either but taking in the context it is a love story between two consenting adults and there’s nothing wrong with liking that. Taking in the context it can even be a bit empowering showing a women take sexual agency in a time where women weren’t allowed to have sexual agency. I’m not saying it’s a progressive song or anything I’m just saying it only becomes problematic when people misinterpret what’s happening in the song albeit it is easy to misinterpret it
How dare you, the first Toy Story was amazing and revolutionary and I will not stand for Toy Story discrimination.
I think unless someone specifically tells you “you can’t like this song it’s about rape” no one’s actually saying you shouldn’t like it, we can be critical of things and still enjoy them. I think past context matters in analysis but the song still gets played today so it no longer lives in its original context. Even back then the idea that women have to say no but they really mean yes so just keep trying is toxic and harmful and I think we need to be aware of that and the effect it’s had and continues to have on our culture and collective conscious.
it’s just a song…
The song, “Baby, It’s Cold Outside” was written in 1944. At the time, the lyrics seemed to be romantic and included stock jokes (specifically seen in the lyric: “What’s in this drink?”). However, today, it seems as though it has many red flags, and I would say I agree. This same lyric I mentioned can now give the impression of a possible roofie. What rubs me the wrong way is in the original score, the parts are labeled “Mouse” and “Wolf”. The woman normally sings the mouse part (“I really can’t stay”), while the man sings the wolf part. I included an article below to explain more on what I mean.
Also, if anyone’s interested, you should check out John Legend’s version of this song. He altered the lyrics to the song.
No yeah I totally agree and was in no way trying to say it’s beyond criticism, but even the way the post starts out with the whole “it’s time to bring an end to the rape anthem…” comes across as this song is bad period, and obviously I know not everyone thinks that way I’m just saying yes, if we are going to keep playing the song today we need to understand that the ideas it shows are toxic and have had effects on our culture/conscious but that doesn’t mean we have to stop playing the song. Like I said a bit earlier media still being created today shows similar playing hard to get as desirable tropes and a lot of that came from this 1940s idea. I guess what I’m trying to say is why is this song that was created in that context being more criticized than media being created today that shares the same ideas. They should both definitely be criticized but I think it’s worse to keep perpetuating this idea that should’ve died in the 1940 then to keep listening to a song knowing it’s from the 1940s and knowing that almost everything in the 1940s was problematic/toxic
Thanks! I’ll definitely give it a listen
I also just wanted to say I really respect your opinions and I hope You’re enjoying the discussion as much as I am. Your input is very much appreciated
I love how the article emphasizes how both readings are valid also that is super creepy how the score was originally written as mouse/wolf. That gives me an icky feeling